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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-07, 02:58 PM
gijoe9's Avatar
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Amazing

I am amazed sometimes by the people here and the sharpness of the minds that gather here. I could mention names but no need really you may all consider yourselves complimented. I was in a bar recently and someone mentioned the stock market and I was appalled at the level of ignorance that was shown in this conversation. Some of these people are people I respect others not so much. The common misconceptions like "you have to be rich to play in the stock market" "it is a magical mystical place" " you got to cheat to get ahead in the market" among others more obtuse.

I have been considering the implications of this conversation in general for aweek or two now when it occurred to me how fortunate I am to have all of you to talk with here at FIO. We are diverse in age and education back ground and experience but we all share a common interest in the markets. Some of the sharpest of us (not me ) are amazing to me sometimes and yet even the dullest of us (maybe me ) is so far ahead of the ignorant masses that it is truly amazing. The most amazing thing of all though is that when I started to try to correct some of the misconceptions in the bar conversation they were willing to boldly argue for their ignorance in the face of obviously superior education. When I used words like market cap, P/E (one lady thought I needed the mens room) it was like I was Merlin chanting an incantation in Latin.

The point of all this is two things one is pat yourselves on the back for being a fine bunch of people and second consider how life would be if there was no medium for this forum to exist in. I would be one of the ignorant masses if not for this place among other things so thank you all for being here.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-07, 12:09 PM
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Chartist

I think people believe that calculus can solve anything. While it was fun to see how trends and rate of change affected class enrollment or closure of a class, it isn't wise to use such a strategy when real money is at stake. I rely very heavily on fundamental analysis and value investing. I think a case can be made for trend investing (as long as the fundamentals are there).

Take the case of Panera Bread (PNRA); it was a stock that in late 2001 looked like it was going to decline significantly in value since it went from an exponential growth rate to a logarithmic growth rate (a very negative sign). Instead, it nearly doubled in value by the time 2002 ran around (a span of 2-3 months, tops).

I follow cash-flow from OA, but I really like cash on the balance sheet. I'm no so much of a growth investor. PE under 20 and not more than twice the growth rate is also important. I like to know the company has enough cash to operate and enough liquidity to stay in business. I also like to see a company that has at least 1.2 times assets as total liabilities and prefer 3 times as many assets as liabilities.

Good luck to all investors.
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Old 04-01-07, 01:08 PM
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Quote

I think the recent bounceback has been more on the false belief that the FED will lower interest rates. I take the FED's refusal to answer questions and their fears of inflation to be a sign that rates will be raised. Watch for a rocky market ahead.

The great fundamentals will eventually win out. But in the short-term, expect a volatile market and don't be surprised if we have a drop that matches or exceeds last years drop.


I agree with the author's stance. I think the market will have a soft-landing, but the FED will tighten interest rates. I think that 2007 will be very similar to 2006 and early 2007. I think we may have as many as 600,000 troops in the Middle East by the end of the year, which could cause stock prices to soar in price during 2008/2009/2010 (whether the FED decreases rates or whether gas prices remain under $4 per gallon or not).
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Old 04-20-07, 09:57 PM
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P/E (one lady thought I needed the mens room)
rofl.

Yes, I think association with the right people is very important. As they say, "show me your best friend and I'll tell you who you are"
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Old 04-21-07, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaswim47 View Post
I think people believe that calculus can solve anything. While it was fun to see how trends and rate of change affected class enrollment or closure of a class, it isn't wise to use such a strategy when real money is at stake. I rely very heavily on fundamental analysis and value investing. I think a case can be made for trend investing (as long as the fundamentals are there).
You know, recently there has been a change on Wall St. These days everyone and their mother can take and pass exams like the CFA. I was talking with one of my professors the other day who does hedge fund consulting, and he told me something I'll never forget.

"CFA's are dinosaurs"

To paraphrase his amazing insight in a nutshell, in the future you won't have a meaningful job on Wall St unless you have advanced quantitative skills. People are using mathematical techniques that make calculus look like grade school math. Basically, fundamental "analysis" and value investing are dead.
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Old 04-21-07, 01:15 PM
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Hi

I think alpha is an important characteristic, but only because we need to think about value to the 12th decimal point. In an over $20 trillion marketplace, this is why the 12th digit actually matters; it's about $180 out of $20 trillion (not very material at all assumes a 9 in the 12th digit). However, do that same transactions billions of times daily and you see why these firms are very concerned about 9th, 10th, 11th, and even 12th decimal points (a ten billionth of a percent). Maybe that's the ruse over alpha; how do we get slighter than average returns than the general market without additional risk. In other words, how do we have the most efficient portfolio possible for its place on the efficient frontier. You want to be on the efficient frontier or very close to it; any return not on the frontier means you are missing out return or taking on too much risk for the return you're getting. One of the main reasons why I think some of people's money (10-15% at most) should be invested actively and the other 85-90% should be invested passively. The risk that the person wishes to assume will most likely determine their potential return, which is why I felt that DDM or SSO might be solid passive investment choices over a 20 year timeframe; however, due to my inexperience in the hedge fund arena, I'm not sure where their strategy could not succeed. For example, there may be a limit to the additional return obtained by the fund. Mathematically, however, it makes sense; the increases in the standard deviation of decline provide adequate up-lift indeed for above-average increases, but whereby the net effect may not be as positive as the efficient frontier due to the portfolio eventually getting too large.

You can reach the CISDM department at http://cisdm.som.umass.edu/

You also should take a look at MIT OpenCourseware at MIT OpenCourseWare | OCW Home

That's why I asked whether Proshare Funds (DDM or SSO) were risk-neutral investments or if they have the same risk-adjusted return. The problem is we won't really know if their strategy is going to pay off over the next 20 years, particularly with the SSO or DDM strategy.

As for Stochastic Calculus, I think it has some merit. CISDM Weighted Hedge Fund index did extremely well in the 2000-2002 era and did decent for the 1990-2006 era as it averaged a 14.7% return for the 16 year period (1990-2005). As indicated previously by Investoid, only 18% of actively-managed portfolios exceed the market. Across the sample, it did slightly better than 18% on first glance, but the true measure would be determined based on how each item compared to its respective index. The hedge fund had successfully managed risk such that it did not experience any decline in 1999, 2000, 2001, or 2002. However, I really think there are limitations to its success; the subprime lending index (if one was created) would have dropped significantly anyways. It would have dropped due to poor lending practices, but only a few companies (such as New Century) needed to go throgh reorganization or bankruptcy. Thus, fundamental analysis isn't dead in my opinion, but the Stochastic Calculus has a place to stay and will continue to grow in the technical analysis arena. I think being able to manage risks were more important than the actual return of the respective index created by CISDM.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-07, 01:43 PM
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When I'm talking about quantitative finance, the efficient frontier and other things you mentioned are pre-intorductory material. To really understand it you'll have to read the last few years of issues from the Journal of finance, portfolio management, and financial analysis among others. The most important things are just now being discussed.

You said two posts back you could make a case for fundamental analysis and charting or "trend" investing. I'd like to hear how you think you can make money using old information like past prices and already known fundamentals, please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaswim47 View Post
As for Stochastic Calculus, I think it has some merit.
lol what does this mean? Are you talking about the mathematical subject itself having merit or using it for some application, or what?



Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaswim47 View Post
Thus, fundamental analysis isn't dead in my opinion, but the Stochastic Calculus has a place to stay and will continue to grow in the technical analysis arena.
lol quant finance is probably the farthest thing away from what chartists or "technical analysts" as they call themselves, do.
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Old 04-21-07, 11:04 PM
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"To paraphrase his amazing insight in a nutshell, in the future you won't have a meaningful job on Wall St unless you have advanced quantitative skills. People are using mathematical techniques that make calculus look like grade school math. Basically, fundamental "analysis" and value investing are dead."

Without trying to cause problems...I call B.S. on that.
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